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I know for some time, there were concerns from the power companies about end users feeding power back onto the grid. Anyone have any insight into the current state of this? I know I remember hearing "the power grid, at the edge, was designed for flow in one direction only" or something to that effect.
No, that isn't a problem. New Mexico supports net metering [solarreviews.com] and is aggressive in solar deployments. Grid-tied systems are required to have automatic disconnects so power doesn't feed back and energize the lines when the grid is down and people are potentially working on the lines. Dedicated sub-panels with manual disconnects would allow you to manually isolate your system from the grid to use it in outage situations without possibly electrocuting people.
This is an easy fix, go to a Grid Zero grid tied inverter with on site storage to move the amount of power going out to be as minimum as possible. This addresses the alleged issues with too many residential solar installations, and minimizes any power purchasing.
Our Net Metering here is a study in crap, where the local utility pays at lower than the wholesale rate, and forces the net metering customer to wait a calendar year to be paid for any excess from the customer. Then, it is only an account credit, wh
What you describe is not "net metering".
Our Net Metering here is a study in crap, where the local utility pays at lower than the wholesale rate, and forces the net metering customer to wait a calendar year to be paid for any excess from the customer. Then, it is only an account credit, which can be used to offset ones power used, water, gas, wastewater. Also, to prevent any possible return to the net metering customer, the utility does not allow more KWh to be purchased than the total of the 12 months prior to the net metering contract being signed. Basically, they stick it to any rate payer that installs solar PV, and make it work vastly in the utilities favor.
Our Net Metering here is a study in crap, where the local utility pays at lower than the wholesale rate, and forces the net metering customer to wait a calendar year to be paid for any excess from the customer. Then, it is only an account credit, which can be used to offset ones power used, water, gas, wastewater. Also, to prevent any possible return to the net metering customer, the utility does not allow more KWh to be purchased than the total of the 12 months prior to the net metering contract being signed. Basically, they stick it to any rate payer that installs solar PV, and make it work vastly in the utilities favor.
That is not "net metering". And you are basically upset you are not getting your neighbors to subsidize your PV array. That's what net metering does. It allows folks with a PV array to trade $0.02/kwh power to the utility at 2pm (when it isn't needed) for $0.10/kwh power at 7pm (when it is needed). It isn't fair and don't be surprised when many folks don't support it. Additionally, that money has to come from somewhere and usually it comes from the maintenance budget of the grid itself or from future g
It appears the point may have been to subtle for you. I want to offset as much as possible, however, the utility will only pay me half the wholesale rate ONE YEAR in arrears, and only for credit from the company store, and, oh yeah, they arbitrarily limit how much I can sell them. This is not a screed about me wanting the neighbors to supplement my PV, rather, receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free.
It appears the point may have been to subtle for you. I want to offset as much as possible, however, the utility will only pay me half the wholesale rate ONE YEAR in arrears, and only for credit from the company store, and, oh yeah, they arbitrarily limit how much I can sell them. This is not a screed about me wanting the neighbors to supplement my PV, rather, receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free.
It appears the point may have been to subtle for you. I want to offset as much as possible, however, the utility will only pay me half the wholesale rate ONE YEAR in arrears, and only for credit from the company store, and, oh yeah, they arbitrarily limit how much I can sell them. This is not a screed about me wanting the neighbors to supplement my PV, rather, receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free.
The grid makes money by selling power. It isn't a "free" battery. Many seem confused by this.
Imagine what would happen if everyone in southern climate had a modest PV system on their roofs? Everyone would produce more energy than they could consume during the year and as a result they would all expect to get paid for their contributions to the power company?
Yea and the power company would make those payments with what money? It would pay for the transmission and generation when the sun isn't shining how
...receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free. What is the cost per watt for energy from a power plant that sits idle all sunny day long? Who do you think should foot the bill for that? What seems fair to you? Price out the cost of ESS, genset, inverters and more than quadrupling break even PV to go 100% off grid then come back and tell us all about how unfair the power company is being to you.
...receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free.
...receiving some remotely equitable treatment, and not being expected to essentially give any excess power generated to the utility for free.
What is the cost per watt for energy from a power plant that sits idle all sunny day long? Who do you think should foot the bill for that? What seems fair to you?
Price out the cost of ESS, genset, inverters and more than quadrupling break even PV to go 100% off grid then come back and tell us all about how unfair the power company is being to you.
No where did I say, "fair," you brought that up. I said, "...remotely equitable treatment..." Clearly, I never said that some costs should not be shouldered by me for the common infrastructure. I did not screed against the monthly interconnect cost, as the common infrastructure does require maintenance.
An example is I had to have the utility come out many year prior to having any PV's, as our lights would dim when starting the vacuum cleaner, or a significant load like the dryer or range. After they said it
No where did I say, "fair," you brought that up. I said, "...remotely equitable treatment..."
No where did I say, "fair," you brought that up. I said, "...remotely equitable treatment..."
Remotely equitable, fair, potato potato. What's the difference?
How do you expect anyone to read what you said and not conclude you believe you are being treated unfairly? For example where you compare wholesale rates to your predicament the reader is really supposed to take something other than you believe you are not being treated fairly away from that?
Clearly, I never said that some costs should not be shouldered by me for the common infrastructure. I did not screed against the monthly interconnect cost, as the common infrastructure does require maintenance.
Clearly, I never said that some costs should not be shouldered by me for the common infrastructure. I did not screed against the monthly interconnect cost, as the common infrastructure does require maintenance.
This particular screed appears to be getting less credit/$$$ for your solar energy than you believe is fair or equitable or whatever.
However, I did state, that being paid a significant fraction less than the wholesale price sucked. Then making one wait until a calendar year to square up is ridiculous. And limiting how much one can sell is triple redundant.
However, I did state, that being paid a significant fraction less than the wholesale price sucked. Then making one wait until a calendar year to square up is ridiculous. And limiting how much one can sell is triple redundant.
I know for some time, there were concerns from the power companies about end users feeding power back onto the grid. Anyone have any insight into the current state of this? I know I remember hearing "the power grid, at the edge, was designed for flow in one direction only" or something to that effect.
I know for some time, there were concerns from the power companies about end users feeding power back onto the grid. Anyone have any insight into the current state of this? I know I remember hearing "the power grid, at the edge, was designed for flow in one direction only" or something to that effect.
There is a crude signaling trick used to control solar. If the grid has too much incoming it will slightly change AC frequency to signal AC coupled inverters to cool their jets.
This mechanism has been a cause of instability with at least CA and HI requiring tweaks to sensitivity to prevent normal range of frequency drift from making shortages worse or causing oscillations.
Don't forget the HOAs!!!! A lot of new housing developments come with HOAs now, and those often times specifically say you can't start a business in your garage. Enjoy!
Don't forget the HOAs!!!! A lot of new housing developments come with HOAs now, and those often times specifically say you can't start a business in your garage. Enjoy!
Thank God I've never had to live somewhere with HOA's.
They should be made illegal....I'm surprised some lawyer somewhere hasn't figured a way to bring successful suit against them...I mean, you buy land and a house, but can't do what you want with it?
HOAs do have their uses but I would never want to live under one's authority again. They are little mini-corporations. What more can I say.
I wish I had bought a home sooner rather than renting for so long. The problem is landlords want you on a lease and will increase your rent every time it's up for renewal and you're at their mercy. I finally bought a home and was paying more per month, but I got a lot more and eventually I paid it off. I just checked the last place I rented and I couldn't find an exact answer, but the rent is almost certainly higher than the mortgage that I used to have to pay. That would be a real burden if I still had
That is rather unidimensional bogey-man thinking, at best.
The âoemagicalâ EV future is already here. It will continue to come about as landlords install metered plugs for parking at lampposts and such, as public and work charging becomes more ubiquitous, and yes, as people buy houses - but home ownership is not nearly as common in some parts of Europe as it is in Murika (Switzerland being the obvious example with 75% rental homes) and electric cars are stroll growing rapidly here.
It absolutely never, ever makes sense to build a home far from the city center. Because even with a huge solar array and EV, your environmental impact is STILL way higher than someone living in the city. Anyone who cares about the environment should be against building any homes that aren't in a high rise.
Uhm no. That's completely wrong.
When they actually need the power from home batteries they pay ~8000% ($2/kwh vs $0.05/kwh). Even then, that's optional, and only for as long as it takes for them to bring a standby plant online. The $0.05 for feeding solar back to the grid is trash, but if they want you to feed from your battery, they pay well.
The $0.05 for feeding solar back to the grid is trash, That is actually pretty decent, as the base production cost for every other power source is in the same cost range.
"The old right wing trick of sabotaging government and then claiming that government can't work..."
I think that trick was first documented during the French Revolution.
Hey you remember Enron? That Texas-based company that was in charge of California's energy infrastructure and fucked it all up because the California government deregulated under Republican governor Pete Wilson in 1996, causing PG&E to sell off most of its owned generating capacity and rely on buying it from private/third party suppliers? How Enron then manipulated the market to drive electricity prices sky high, deliberately causing power shortages so PG&E had to purchase increasingly expensive pow
You're thinking of Texas. California is gradually fixing their grade with heavy government regulation and investment. That's why you haven't heard of a major power outage in California in a while that wasn't just caused by a wildfire.
You're thinking of Texas. California is gradually fixing their grade with heavy government regulation and investment. That's why you haven't heard of a major power outage in California in a while that wasn't just caused by a wildfire.
Well, the "fix" was to stop the closing of several natural gas plants, extend the lifetime of their last remaining nuke, pass laws allowing extremely dirty diesel generators to run flat out during peak months (including shipboard diesels in ports), and in a panic revise their net metering laws to dramatically slow home solar buildouts. And even with all that, in arguably the most temperate climate on the continent, they've been on the razor's edge more than once in the last few years, with the last major n
From the “don’t tread on me” party no less.
Wait, so if you buy some solar panels and a battery to offset they still come after you? Sounds like Big Electric has your state right where it wants it. Pants around your ankles and head between your legs.
The middle income people pay for the poor and rich people.
For example, I live in a city apartment. Obviously I can't install a solar array, and wouldn't be able to disconnect. But my city's electricity is now some of the most expensive in the country. And because poor people can't afford it, they constantly offer subsidies to those poor people and even forgive past due amounts in some cases. Then the power company raises rates on me to cover for the subsidies. Then more people can't afford it, the higher th
all newly built homes must be constructed with a solar power system and a plug for electric vehicles
I'd provide a socket, not a plug.
And find out what the bare minimum is to comply. Because that's what you'll get. Which will be absolutely useless for those that actually want to use either, who'll then have to replace that, i.e. throw more money away for removing the crap that gets installed to comply with the law instead of just having to pay for having whatever they want installed.
Such laws always end up achieving the opposite of what they were trying to do.
Sub par? Oh my, of course not! It's of course within the letter of the law.
You can be certain that by the time this law is finally in the stage where it can pass it will be so watered down and washed out that you can literally install anything and comply with it. What we're looking at here is a greenwashing law, supposed to make an administration look environment-friendly without causing too much harm to the economy.
The law, which is not let a law of course, is barley 2 pages long. It really contains only three provisions:
1) That new residential construction include the installation of at least 1 watt of solar PV per square foot of heated area.
2) That new residential construction includes at least one receptacle for charging electric vehicles.
3) It tasks the state's electrical bureau to modify the state's electrical code to provide exact requirements.
There is nothing to water down, and if passed it would effectively be
Believe it or not, NM gets really cold. It is a high desert, which means nights get chilly and winters are colder than you'd expect. Heck, there are ski resorts near the same latitude as San Diego.
Of all of the states along the south edge of the US*, NM residents would benefit the least.
Couple that with the cost (source from web site promoting solar water heaters) of $9,000 and you see a lot of resistance.
* Don't call it a southern state. Several counties are named after Lincoln and Union generals specif
How "cold" it is is actually not very relevant. You need sun, that is all. Sure: in mid summer with +50C in the sun, the water gets hotter than in mid winter with -10C: but the water gets hot nevertheless!
Solar water heaters are not cheap if you live somewhere where it ever gets below freezing. Because now you need a glycol loop and another heat exchanger in the tank
Way smarter to go solar electric and just put in a heat pump water heater.
The equipment I can find costs $7k+ and still needs installation. And may provide 50% of my hot water in a good year. It makes no economic sense at all.
At population densities like that, no wonder some Americans think that
My wallet hurts again. And aren't the new homeowners financing the extra $9000, over decades?
It will be critically important as we move forward with mandated solar installations that we begin to enforce and enhance regulations requiring manufacturers to limit EMI/RFI radiation and spectrum pollution.
To date manufacturers have a pass on adhering to existing requirements as the FCC turns a blind eye to this growing problem. The problem is the common current generated by inverters that is carried and radiated by every cable in the system.
Installers have little or no expertise in eliminating this probl
It's never made sense why NM and AZ in particular haven't been covered in PVs. What we've not seen enough of are systems smart enough to schedule demand for things that need not be done at particular times to take advantage of surpluses. Mixed-use regions will allow some type of factories and services to operate during peak production but buy energy from nearby residences so "the grid" in a larger sense has no role in it. Now... all new AND existing big box stores need to cover their roofs and at least portio
3KW of panels should produce 6+ MWh annually in New Mexico, depending on shading, or a little less than half the average consumption in the state. And much of it should directly offset AC use.
Be interesting to see how long their net metering program lasts once this rolls out. Utilities hate net metering once people actually start to use it.
This is such a problem that is my area homes are prohibited from installing solar panels at all. Zero permits have been granted in the past year. The electric provider simply cannot handle the added grid capacity created by having additional new installations. They also do not have the funding (low income area served) to upgrade their systems to support additional solar installations.
most people pay around 12c kwh at the moment. ... the connection monthly charge ... now 25/mo just to have a meter (for all residential customers, even non-solar) ... the real wholesale cost of juice is around 3c
most people pay around 12c kwh at the moment. ... the connection monthly charge ... now 25/mo just to have a meter (for all residential customers, even non-solar) ... the real wholesale cost of juice is around 3c
This is the real problem with solar and with EVs. Solar and EVs are basically useless without an electrical grid and a road system. However, solar and EV users are largely not charged to maintain the grid and the roads, so those costs fall to other people that tend to skew towards low incomes that can't afford solar or EVs. Thus, the current economics for solar and EVs is regressive with respect to income. That's why states are imposing fees for hooking solar to the grid and for registering an EV to dri
The roads thing is currently being worked on. In the not so distance future we'll all likely be required to have little meters on our cars that report the miles driven and we will be billed one way or another for that.
The real punishment will be that it won't just be for EV but all vehicles, even though ICE already pay taxes for road use.
I really love the idea of solar but not without netmetering. As more people get solar, the industry will put increasing burdens on those who want it, eventually making it s
The real punishment will be that it won't just be for EV but all vehicles, even though ICE already pay taxes for road use.
The real punishment will be that it won't just be for EV but all vehicles, even though ICE already pay taxes for road use.
It's amazing - you can imagine everyone adopting a usage-based system to pay for the roads, but you can't imagine gas taxes being reduced? How would double-charging poor/PoC that can't afford EVs remain in place?
I could imagine a lot of things, but this is government we are talking about. You think California will EVER drop taxes on gasoline users? They are next to the DEVIL!!!! for using gasoline. Want to stop being double taxed then buy an EV.
Politicians do not really cared about poor/POC (not all poc are poor but nice paint brush) beyond empty promises to get them to vote i.e. San Frans restitution idea, yeah that'll go through sure. If they really cared then they(they would be Democrats, the ones that claim to
In California we have this system for Fast Track. They send you this little device that communicates with toll roads and automatically charges you when you use them. It's pretty nifty. They sent my ex wife one in the mail for free since she was constantly using toll roads (we paid the bill online but you still have to figure it out and hopefully send enough).
Certainly not a stretch to see California roll this out for all cars. As it is, most new cars already come with On Star typing tracking built right in.
Tolls fucking suck. Forgot something at home? Oh, now your one-way toll just tripled!
When we renew license plates in Canada, we already need to tell them what our mileage is. Not too much of a stretch for this years costs to be based on last years driving distance.
The local utility charges 55 cents a day to connect to the grid. Power actually used is above that.
A three phase connection costs more.
So revise how things are priced. This "real problem with solar and EVs" is a non-issue. It will be fixed once people decide to fix it - it is a political issue and not a technical one.
So you are correct in identifying the issue but the severity is being exaggerated.
That beats the hell out of ca where Edison charges me .50 (plus distribution) and buys for .05
I wouldn't be surprised if the grid operator is actually fine with it - they can sell a shitload of cheap excess generation to neighboring states without having to actually pay to build the generation infrastructure.
Mostly they hate net metering because they aren't seeing volume scale effects that are to their advantage. Having several gigawatts of surplus generation to put on the market for California to buy off of them daily probably changes their attitude a bit.
As a reminder, these solar panel rebates and EV subsidies are temporary, intended to help bootstrap fledgling industries. Or are we assuming that utilities will continue to pay a premium price for whatever electricity you shove onto the grid, regardless of need? That solar panels will forever be subsidized by federal taxpayers, and that EVs will always be discounted with federal tax dollars?
Well, the alternative is to stop subsidizing gas. And that's far off past the horizon because we can't rely on EVs. Subsidies can stop once the military gets off oil.
And much of it should directly offset AC use
Certainly offset the dedicated green chile freezer.
If you have a battery to store it...
You realize the sun doesn't just stay directly above your home all day, right? In fact you can literally watch the sun move across the sky, hitting different exposure points all day long.
My condo stayed super cool until after noon when the sun finally go to my side of the building. It sure did heat up fast in the last few hours, and putting solar on my roof didn't change that, it just made it so I could offset my bill, which it did and then some.
Of course, if they kill net metering, all bets are off.
The first watt is expensive; after that, the marginal cost is much lower, so this will encourage bigger systems than the law requires. And as others have said, anything which reduces the peak load (midday AC) is a help.
What are they running, their own commercial heat press? I heard a number closer to 1400KW average and most of it was computers, HVAC, and large 220V appliances.
What are they running, their own commercial heat press? I heard a number closer to 1400KW average and most of it was computers, HVAC, and large 220V appliances.
An average here isn't very informative, most residential power usage happens in short bursts when you heat or cool a space just after coming home or when using an appliance (drying clothes, taking a shower, washing dishes, etc). The only way computers belong on that list is if you are doing significant crypto mining or running a full data center in your home. HVAC is going to be most electricity usage, especially in somewhere like New Mexico. After that will be anything that uses resistive heating, so ho
Does anything say the homeowner has to replace the equipment when it reaches EOL?
Where does it say the houses have to have batteries?
The article is implying all the houses are grid-tie so no batteries to repair. Solar panels frequently have around 80% of the original capacity after 25 years. I know of several firms that buy up old panels to create arrays from them as a cheaper options to new panels.
Your argument is exactly the same as requiring electrical wiring or even a roof on a house. All things require maintenance. That doesn't mean it isn't an appropriate requirement to put on
Those with limited space will bear a higher cost for newer, more efficient panels, thus scaling up. Those with plenty of real estate can scale out by installing somewhat less efficient panels.
Well, when you watch news in Europe about "the states", it is hard to imagine that you build new houses that last longer than a solar plant with batteries. But I might be mistaken there :P
What houses are built with a short lifespan?
Assuming that the technical parts of the regulations are written by a competent electrician, or worded appropriately for goal-setting rather than prescriptive standards.
Oh, sorry - America - replace government regulation with feeding the lawyers.
I've got natural gas pipes in my house for my furnace, water heater, stove, dryer, etc. I have gasoline cans in my attached garage for my riding mower and chainsaw. I have a fireplace, candles, and an oil lamp. I'm pretty sure that solar systems are quite far down the list of "most flammable things in my house".
It's much cheaper to install this stuff when building the house; just a bit more work for the electrician. And it will reduce the monthly expenses in the house. You're worried about the short term, but the long term is way more important.
It's much cheaper to install this stuff when building the house; just a bit more work for the electrician. And it will reduce the monthly expenses in the house. You're worried about the short term, but the long term is way more important.
It's much cheaper to install this stuff when building the house; just a bit more work for the electrician. And it will reduce the monthly expenses in the house. You're worried about the short term, but the long term is way more important.
Early investors in Ponzi schemes can do quite well for themselves initially. Once the basic reality sets in that the grid is not actually a giant battery everyone gets to use for free good luck seeing any returns on your investment. Even the most liberal states in the country are radically "altering the deal" as basic reality sets in. NEM 3.0 passed in CA last month.
It appears as if Slashdot readers are woefully ignorant of basic economics. However, so are you as well.
Seems hard to grasp that the increase in payment is more than off set by the savings in electricity costs. Especially if you have to take a loan to buy the house and take tax credits into account.
If you do not want solar panels on your house: don't build a new house, buy an old one ... simple.
Just buy an existing home then. No one's forcing you to buy a brand new unused home.
Just buy an existing home then. No one's forcing you to buy a brand new unused home.
Just buy an existing home then. No one's forcing you to buy a brand new unused home.
I love the "nobody is forcing you" sound bites. Ignore any force that does exist and focus on a place it doesn't as if all the other places don't count.
The reality is if the cost of new homes increase to cover added building expenses this increase affects the price of ALL homes.
It's best for society to vote the bums out. Those who pursuit counterproductive policy either by ignorance or corruption don't deserve to represent the people.
Home values are higher for homes with solar. By about 20x monthly savings on power. So, no, those old houses won't necessarily be more expensive because the new ones are.
Home values are higher for homes with solar. By about 20x monthly savings on power. So, no, those old houses won't necessarily be more expensive because the new ones are.
Home values are higher for homes with solar. By about 20x monthly savings on power. So, no, those old houses won't necessarily be more expensive because the new ones are.
Solar does not necessarily add value to properties. Often times solar installs are leased and the person buying the property is forced to inherit it. Solar is well known turnoff to buyers in the real-estate market.
Presently in many areas housing is quite scarce. This raises the cost of lower end properties beyond what they would otherwise be if a greater share of cheaper properties were on the market.
The price of new homes rarely has anything to do with the cost of building them.
That seems a bit silly, doesn't it? Solar only charges during the day. People are not home during the day, they're at work. Unless you have local storage, you're just (mostly) effectively wasting the power generation in gain, feeding back to the grid.
That seems a bit silly, doesn't it? Solar only charges during the day. People are not home during the day, they're at work. Unless you have local storage, you're just (mostly) effectively wasting the power generation in gain, feeding back to the grid.
You live in NM and you shut off ALL AC and refrigeration during the day? I don't know if you've been there, but it gets really fucking hot there you'd probably be melting some plastic in your home if you tried that on a summer day. There are NO offices near you? No one in your community parks their EV during the day? You're gone EVERY weekend? Just because you can't use it directly doesn't mean it's not a massive benefit for your community and reduces transfer of power across high-voltage lines. It
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The person who's taking you to lunch has no intention of paying.